Freetalk about USA culture: 19 new messages in 18 topics

The culture of the United States of America.

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Saturday, April 08, 2006

19 new messages in 18 topics - digest ==>Read...

soc.culture.usa
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa
soc.culture.usa@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* Keep breaking law for 5 years brings reward! Citizenship! - 1 messages, 1
author
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa/browse_thread/thread/2d4b9cc718a8d0d6
* Another immigration bill rant... - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa/browse_thread/thread/21f4de35e065fe4
* CHRISTIAN EVANGELIST BANNED, VIOLATED VISA RULES - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa/browse_thread/thread/2962877ba33f7e12
* Where is Elizabeth Taylor? - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa/browse_thread/thread/c6dd30793b95678
* John Howard - TNI Colaborator - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa/browse_thread/thread/ef60c48bd240f96d
* ZIONAZIS SLAUGHTERED BRITON - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa/browse_thread/thread/9eb3d94155360898
* Border battle is taking toll on desert's wildlife - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa/browse_thread/thread/dc2c4c016bd9c4aa
* Half a century of shame - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa/browse_thread/thread/5c4f36a6deb510e8
* Ha! GOD Turns the Tables on Tennessee Sinners! - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa/browse_thread/thread/5e1ca2b7511c440
* Pol Pot and his friends from the West Joven Martir de la lucha por la
dignidad CONTRA EL ESTALINISMO KASTRISTA. - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa/browse_thread/thread/bd44504d8b0e75e9
* Bangla Terrorist Groups Involved In Varanasi Bomb Blats - 1 messages, 1
author
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa/browse_thread/thread/ee4fc3538a948b81
* House of Representatives racist Cynthia McKinney goes to the well one too
many times! - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa/browse_thread/thread/ddb928e5d7fac726
* An American Intifada? - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa/browse_thread/thread/655bf570fc71dac0
* DENMARK: Muslim Bastards Go After Cartoonist's Daughter . . . - 1 messages,
1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa/browse_thread/thread/4912ad3ca7fe9080
* Thank you, India admirer ! - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa/browse_thread/thread/e5d8f7ba709dcb5b
* BUSH & CHENEY INTELLECT EQUAL TO THAT OF A GOAT! - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa/browse_thread/thread/b282fabc764fcffb
* Should Hiroshima and Nagasaki bar US investment and merchandise ? - 1
messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa/browse_thread/thread/4ff4bcb10541ff10
* Sing Along With BITCH ("Itz Hard Out Here For A Pimp") - 1 messages, 1
author
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa/browse_thread/thread/d050999ea1771c53

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Keep breaking law for 5 years brings reward! Citizenship!
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa/browse_thread/thread/2d4b9cc718a8d0d6
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Apr 8 2006 8:17 pm
From: "Satchel"

And do you really believe these aliens will tell the truth about how long
they have been in this country. Why would an alien here for a year say the
truth knowing he would be exported. All of them will say they have been
here 5 or more years, and didn't have jobs half the time so as not to have
to pay taxes.....and how would the IRS compute the taxes anyway since most
are paid in cash under the table and with bogus SSA numbers.

Wow....how stupid

Satchel
"GW Chimpzilla's Eye-Rack Neocon Utopia" <gw@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MOdZf.669562$084.47849@attbi_s22...
> beachshark1@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> Washington -- The Senate reached an extraordinary and fragile
>> bipartisan agreement today on a sweeping overhaul of U.S. immigration
>> law that would grant a chance to permanent residence for illegal
>> immigrants who have been in the country longer than five years -- an
>> estimated 7 million people.
>>
>> Those who have lived in the country illegally between two and five
>> years would have to report to a port of entry to apply for a visa, but
>> also would receive a chance at permanent residence, along with their
>> families. Officials estimate about 5 million illegal immigrants would
>> fall into that group and -- if the Senate's legislation passes and
>> becomes law -- they would have three years to apply for the new visa.
>
> What an idiotic law. Par for the course.
>
>
>>
>> More recent arrivals would have to return home and apply for visas, but
>> they would have the authorization to travel across the border that they
>> lack now.
>>
>> Final details continued to be worked out by senators and their aides
>> with votes expected on the immigration legislation today and Friday.
>>
>> President Bush early today signed off on the compromise, as did the
>> Republican and Democratic Senate leaders. It was reached after three
>> days of intense negotiations that came about after the Senate had
>> reached an impasse that threatened to kill any legislation for the
>> year. A key player was Sen. Mel Martinez, a Florida Republican who also
>> announced the agreement in Spanish in the Senate television gallery, a
>> first.
>>
>> "We've had a huge breakthrough" overnight, said Majority Leader Bill
>> Frist, R-Tenn, told reporters today.
>>
>> Conservative opponents denounced the pact as an amnesty for those
>> largely Latin American migrants who broke the law to enter the country.
>> Supporters called it a plea bargain, with an extensive probation that
>> requires immigrations to remain employed, learn English, take American
>> civics, pay hefty fines and pass criminal background checks.
>>
>> The sweeping immigration legislation, based on a bipartisan bill
>> authored by Sens. John McCain, R-Ariz., and Edward Kennedy, D-Mass.,
>> also includes more money for additional border patrol agents and a host
>> of other provisions.
>>
>> The issue has split Republicans in Congress. The Republican-controlled
>> House last December backed a tough border security measure that made it
>> a felony to live in the country illegally and also criminalized efforts
>> to help illegal immigrants. Catholic Church leaders have denounced that
>> provision and it has triggered large rallies and marches the past
>> several weeks in support of immigration.
>
> --
> There are only two kinds of Republicans: Millionaires and fools.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Another immigration bill rant...
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa/browse_thread/thread/21f4de35e065fe4
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Apr 8 2006 6:38 pm
From: ensenadajim

On Sat, 8 Apr 2006 16:39:26 -0700, "Stan de SD"
<standesd_DIGA_NO_A_SPAM@covad.net> wrote:

>
>"ensenadajim" <ensenadaXXXjim@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:g3hg32hfab3u7krk5aifqtgu6mmhq2umlc@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 08 Apr 2006 20:30:20 GMT, "Lets Roll"
>> <letsroll@meet-me-in-hell.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Racial profiling is the excuse. Nobody is supposed to notice that 80% of
>> >the illegal aliens are from Mexico and the rest speak Spanish.
>> >
>>
>> You are wrong. Many speak Russian, French, German, and a host of other
>> languages.
>
>What are those percentages?
>

Irrelevant, really. He said 80% from Mexico and THE REST SPEAK
SPANISH.

That last bit is what is patently wrong, in case the obvious went
right by you (it did).

jim

==============================================================================
TOPIC: CHRISTIAN EVANGELIST BANNED, VIOLATED VISA RULES
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa/browse_thread/thread/2962877ba33f7e12
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Apr 9 2006 1:47 am
From:

"ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com" <ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> writes:

> > They said the visa did not allow missionary activities.
>
> In order for it to be missionary activity, wouldn't he have to be
> preaching a different religion? Do they have foreknowledge that he was
> going to preach a non-Christian sermon to Christians? If not, why do
> they call it missionary activity?

India has too many Christian preachers.
Why import more of that ilk ?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Where is Elizabeth Taylor?
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa/browse_thread/thread/c6dd30793b95678
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Apr 8 2006 6:55 pm
From: "Komin"

Kar ,
I did not ask the question .

==============================================================================
TOPIC: John Howard - TNI Colaborator
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa/browse_thread/thread/ef60c48bd240f96d
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Apr 9 2006 11:56 am
From: rifty@tpg.com.au (Rifty)

RodneyK <"(RodneyK)RodneyKShanley"@hotmail.com> wrote:

> From my understanding of reading a few press releases, Howard is
> concerned about the integrity of Indonesia (of which Irian Jaya is
> integral) and the validity of international law.

No-one's going to take WP away from the Indonesians, not that they ever
deserved to have it in the first place. The freedom movements are
internal and assisted by nobody from outside.

> If W.Papua became independent, what will happen to the Javanese?

The Javanese where? In WP? They would face the same challenges that West
Papuans now face.

> Anyway the W.Papuans are incidental.

Incidental to what?

Rifty
--
Academic and Computing Help
http://rifty.net

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Apr 9 2006 12:14 pm
From: Daeron

RodneyK wrote:

> Rifty wrote:
>> Wayne <someone@someisp.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I think he is informed.
>>
>> I think he is trying to save 2 billion dollars worth of trade, and he'll
>> do just about anything for that. To him it is indeed business. As usual.
>> There can be no other explanation that makes any sense.
>> Rifty
>
> From my understanding of reading a few press releases, Howard is
> concerned about the integrity of Indonesia (of which Irian Jaya is
> integral) and the validity of international law.
> If W.Papua became independent, what will happen to the Javanese?
> Anyway the W.Papuans are incidental.
> RodneyK

Under International law Indonesia has no more legitmate claim upon the
Western half of New Guinea than it does upon the Western half of the
Australian mainland.

Although the United Nations in the 1960s 'acknowledged' West Papua as part
of Indonesia, the Indonesian claim is in violation of the United Nations
Charter and in violation of UN General Assembly Resolutions 1514 and 1541.

The original reason the Australian government bit its tongue and allowed
Java's military to seize West New Guinea was because our government
mistakenly assumed the US government was pro-Jakarta against both Australia
and the Netherlands who had in 1957 made a joint announcement that they
intended for the whole of New Guinea to gain independence.

Of course it was not the US government that was supporting General
Suharto's failed invasion of West New Guinea and Sukarno's ridiculous
claims that the western half was Asian, that Papuans were black Asians and
the tree kangaroos and wallabies and echidna were new Asian species.
The reason the representatives of the US government had strong-armed the
Netherlands into approving of the 1949 creation of the "United States of
Indonesia" - which within seven months was crushed by Sukarno's Axis
militia calling themselves the "Republic of Indonesia" ;
was because Standard Oil (now Exxon, ConocoPhillips, Freeport McMoRan,
Bechtel, Newmont, etc.) wanted the "easy access" which some Javanese people
in New York & Washington had promised to US companies if Java became the
new colonial master of the East Indies and any neighbouring regions.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: ZIONAZIS SLAUGHTERED BRITON
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa/browse_thread/thread/9eb3d94155360898
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Apr 8 2006 10:02 pm
From: "serwad"

Mother's plea for justice for her slaughtered son

This week Tom Hurndall's mother will testify at the inquest into the death
of her son, shot by an Israeli soldier in Gaza. She wants the truth to be
told - and asks why, when her son was helping children avoid gunfire, he was
left fatally wounded. Mark Townsend reports

Sunday April 9, 2006
The Observer

Sometime this afternoon, Jocelyn Hurndall will pick up the phone to Israel.
For an hour or so, the mother-of-two will receive her final briefing into
the topic that has dominated her life for the past three years: who was
behind the order to shoot her son.
Tomorrow the quietly spoken former teacher will be the first witness at the
high-profile inquest into the death of Tom Hurndall, 22, the British student
shot in the head as he shepherded Palestinian children to safety.

Beneath the gaze of the world's media, Jocelyn will tell coroner Andrew
Reid, at St Pancras Coroners' Court, how the Israeli authorities tampered
with evidence, suppressed investigations and attempted to cover up the
shooting.

For Jocelyn, it offers a chance to try to explain an unprovoked killing
which has been condemned by the international community. For the Israeli
authorities, damaging headlines lie ahead, as its army's chain of command is
dragged into the controversy surrounding the killing, among them senior
officers wanted by British authorities for war crimes.

Reid may be forgiven for experiencing a sense of deja vu as Jocelyn delivers
her testimony. Only last week, the Central London Coroner contemplated
strikingly similar allegations into the death of James Miller, a British
cameraman who was shot dead a month after Tom, in the same Gaza Strip
refugee camp, by a soldier from the same Israeli Defence Force battalion.

Miller's inquest heard how Israeli authorities tried to block British
attempts to investigate the murder and heard allegations that Israeli
authorities covered up the precise circumstances of how the award-winning
34-year-old was shot while waving a white flag.

What did not emerge during Miller's inquest was how the Israeli authorities
offered £200,000 'blood money' to Miller's widow, Sophy, to settle her case
for compensation in the weeks running up to the inquest. Sophy received the
offer in January and was encouraged by the British embassy in Israel to
accept the deal. The Miller family rejected the offer as an insult, having
already invested more in a quest to bring those responsible to justice.

'A mother has her husband shot and has to raise children for the rest of her
life, and is told that the amount offered is limited because the Israelis
believed that, by offering any more, they would set a precedent,' said
James's brother, John, yesterday. The Hurndalls have also experienced
Israeli intransigence on financial matters: the Israelis provided a cheque
to cover the cost of repatriating Tom's comatose body to a London hospital
after he was shot - but it bounced.

This week's inquest will be heard against a backdrop of hostility between
British and Israeli authorities that have resulted from the two deaths. So
brittle are relations that the IDF has refused to send a representative to
the hearing.

Jocelyn Hurndall will place the blame for her son's death not on a single
sniper, but on the entire 'pyramid of authority'. She wants to see a case
brought against senior IDF officers whom British lawyers want to prosecute
under war crime legislation relating to attacks on Palestinian civilians and
property.

Among them is retired major-general Doron Almog, who may also have been part
of the chain of command responsible for overseeing Rafah, the Gaza Strip
town where Tom Hurndall was shot. Last September, a warrant was issued for
Almog's arrest as he touched down at Heathrow on a visit to Britain. Israeli
diplomats warned him not to leave the plane.

Amid mounting worldwide opprobrium over the two shootings, the diplomatic
fallout is likely to worsen this week, when the Attorney-General receives
the evidence gathered by the Israelis into the shooting of Miller. Lord
Goldsmith, who is said to have a sharp interest in the case, knows that
history will be made if there are evidential reasons for him to request the
extradition of Miller's killer from Israel. Goldsmith will meet Miller's
family this month to reveal his decision.

Jocelyn spent yesterday afternoon flicking through Tom's journals. Although
he was barely into his twenties when he was killed, Tom had maintained a
meticulous archive of thoughts and poetry for the previous decade. His
parents plan to publish their son's work soon; it comprises countless emails
and letters in Tom's spidery longhand that reveal an observant young man who
had travelled to Rafah to form an opinion unsullied by propaganda. Speaking
from her north London home yesterday, Jocelyn said: 'Tom had an innate
necessity to write. As times goes by, the more I am struck by his maturity.
His keenness to observe. We are lucky that he managed to leave so many
thoughts behind.

'He was a remarkable person, with a wonderful nature and a quite incredible
thirst to learn about the world. He would have wanted justice if this had
happened to anybody else. We will never give up until that justice is
secured.'

Just before midday on 11 April, 2003, an Israeli sniper opened fire on three
children as they played in a dusty, makeshift playground in Rafah, deep in
the fag end of the Gaza Strip. The youngsters froze. A young English
photographer dashed to the scene, carrying the traumatised body of a small
boy to safety.

Hurndall returned into the line of fire. As he bent to scoop a small girl
away from the fizzing bullets, a bullet thudded into the side of his head.
Hurndall spent the next nine months in a London hospital. He never regained
consciousness.

There is a particular reference in his journals, among the thousands of
words he wrote wherever he went, that seems peculiarly prescient. His words
reveal a young man keenly aware of the dangers ahead, indeed of his possible
fate.

'Will be there [Rafah] for a few weeks until money runs out or I am shot,'
he wrote days before he was indeed shot. Other missives portray a man who
had prided himself on the objectivity of his opinions, the belief that only
the truly impartial hold views worth sharing. Emails show that Hurndall
arrived in Rafah after hearing of the death of American peacekeeper Rachel
Corrie. He wanted to know what had really happened, Could it really be that
bad?

Rachel was a member of the International Solidarity Movement (ISM), a
gathering of young idealists who offer themselves as human shields. Three
weeks before Tom was shot, the 23-year-old had watched a bulldozer rumble
towards Palestinian homes that the IDF wanted to flatten. She stood her
ground. The bulldozer, it is alleged, crushed her, stopped, then reversed
over her broken frame. Photographs show ISM activists huddled around a
crushed body. In the background stands the massive shape of a bulldozer.
Connecting the two are deep bulldozer tracks. The field report by the IDF,
in keeping with the controversial accounts furnished by their inquiries into
the death of James and Tom, state that Rachel was 'not run over by an
engineering vehicle'.

For the two British families, the investigations have served only to
highlight the shooting of Palestinian children in places like Rafah. By the
time of Tom's shooting, 270 civilians had been killed in its crumbling
streets since the start of the intifada.

There are very few investigations into the cases. The first Israeli soldier
to be convicted of manslaughter in a combat zone was the sergeant who was
jailed for eight years last April after being found guilty of shooting Tom.

'A large percentage of them were women or children, ordinary people going
about their business,' said Anthony Hurndall, Tom's father. He now hopes
that, if anything positive can emerge from his son's death, it is the
highlighting of what he describes as the targeting of innocent civilians
with 'impunity'. Anthony believes that the sniper convicted of manslaughter
for shooting Tom, Sergeant Wahid Taysir, was simply doing what his senior
officers expected of him.

'Taysir was doing what his superiors told him to do, that is why he is so
angry,' said Anthony. The City of London property lawyer remains confident
that senior Israeli officers will be brought to account after the evidence
that is likely to be aired before the coroner this week.

It was Anthony Hurndall's perseverance that finally led to the tracking down
of 13 witnesses who contradicted the IDF's official report into how his son
was shot. His own report destroyed the validity of IDF claims that Tom was
firing a gun at Israelis, or wearing combat fatigues. Images taken moments
after the shooting, when blood was still spurting from his brain, also
revealed that Tom had been shot hundreds of yards from where the Israeli
army had alleged. Such findings will be corroborated this week by testimony
from ballistics experts, Met officers and pathologists' reports.

Anthony said: 'We were told right away that it was very unlikely we would
get the truth. They said CCTV cameras were non-existent, then they said they
were facing the other way, then they said that they could not see where Tom
was shot. It was all wrong.'

It is not only the manner of their death that John and Tom have in common:
both hailed from families proud to see their children travel the world and
answer life's questions for themselves. Even now, their families talk of the
vigour of youth; the importance of discovering their own truths.

For both families, this month's inquests will also precipitate a change of
gear in their quest for justice. For the Miller family, the quiet dignified
approach that they have hereto assumed may soon be a thing of the past. Even
as the Foreign Office announced last Friday that the minister, Kim Howells,
was looking to arrange a meeting with the family, the Millers told The
Observer that they never wanted to see Howells again.

'He sat down with my mother, father and Sophy, and promised to do all he
could. But that was it. Nothing. He wouldn't even return our calls. We have
been praised for our dignified approach, but that may be over,' John said
yesterday.

When last Thursday's inquest jury returned its verdict that James was
murdered, Miller felt elation, then a burning fury.

'In a strange way, the vindication hurts; you feel more determined than
ever.' Another British family who lost a son in the streets of Rafah may
experience a similar sensation this week.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Border battle is taking toll on desert's wildlife
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa/browse_thread/thread/dc2c4c016bd9c4aa
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Apr 8 2006 7:06 pm
From: "col mustard"

<johnwesley55@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1144543754.771478.293420@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

Stan de SD wrote:
> Border battle is taking toll on desert's wildlife
> By Julie Cart
>
> Los Angeles Times
>
> CABEZA PRIETA NATIONAL WILDLIFE REFUGE, Ariz. -
> Mountains of trash, recurring fires, despoiled natural springs, vandalized
> historic sites and disappearing wildlife are part of the devastating toll
> that the government's running battle with smugglers and migrants is taking
> on national parks and wildlife refuges along the U.S. border with Mexico.
>
> In southern Arizona, the damage extends to American Indian and private
> land,
> jeopardizing a broad expanse of the Sonoran Desert.
>
> At Cabeza Prieta National Wildlife Refuge, 2 ½ million pounds of garbage
> is
> scattered through broad valleys and desert arroyos every year, according
> to
> Roger DiRosa, the refuge manager. Officials with the U.S. Border Patrol
> say
> the refuge's seven mountain ranges - home to bighorn sheep and a prized
> destination for wilderness hikers - now serve as posts for lookouts who
> use
> night-vision equipment to track Border Patrol movements. Mountain peaks
> conceal clandestine radio repeating stations. Illegal "ghost roads" carved
> by smugglers and pursuing federal agents crisscross Cabeza Prieta and
> nearby
> Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument.
>
> Officials at the U.S. Department of the Interior say they are considering
> giving the Border Patrol control of the hard-hit areas of the refuge and
> park nearest the border.
>
> "We've talked about what kind of swath they would need, how much we would
> let them control, recognizing that you would be sacrificing a small area
> for
> the greater good," said Larry Parkinson, Interior's deputy assistant
> secretary for law enforcement and security.
>
> On a recent tour of the damage, DiRosa, who manages Cabeza Prieta for the
> U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, steered his truck toward the Growler
> Mountains, making slow headway through what used to be fertile desert
> topsoil. A constant stream of vehicles has pulverized the sand into a fine
> powder that DiRosa and other federal land managers call "moon dust."
>
> There is only one official road in Cabeza Prieta's 860,000 acres, and this
> wasn't it. The nameless routes, stretching north from the Mexican border,
> are the result of an estimated 1,000 illegal foot crossings a day and
> countless vehicles transporting undocumented migrants, drug runners and
> Border Patrol.
>
> The constant human pressure is threatening to eliminate the area's
> wildlife.
> The refuge's population of the endangered Sonoran pronghorn, a deerlike
> creature, had fallen to 21 - down from 179 in 1992 - and the species was
> headed for extinction before a captive-breeding program was established in
> 2004.
>
> Cabeza Prieta has 400 plant species and 300 types of wildlife, including
> ringtail cats, kit foxes, bighorn sheep, javelina, badgers, bobcats, mule
> deer, desert tortoises, 24 snake species, 11 bat species and 212 bird
> species.
>
>
>
>
> It's only a matter of time, officials say, before these animals' home is
> rendered uninhabitable.
>
> Federal officials describe the effects of massive trespass as "staggering"
> and warn of dire repercussions.
>
> East of Organ Pipe, residents of the Tohono O'odham Indian Reservation
> recently removed more than 7,000 abandoned vehicles.
>
> Wendy Glenn, whose family runs a cattle ranch near Douglas, described the
> harm done to livestock and wildlife.
>
> "There are at least two semi [tractor-truck] loads of trash in the canyon
> behind us, and there are probably seven canyons like that," she said. "Our
> cattle eat the trash. Little animals stick their heads in bean cans and
> walk
> around with the cans on their muzzle until they die. Our neighbor had a
> cow
> in a corral - it was having a problem calving. They came back in the
> morning
> to check on it, and two illegals had killed the calf and were cooking it.
>
> "There's constant harassment of wildlife," Glenn said. "Deer don't feed
> during the night, because there's too many people running around. They
> need
> to go into the thickets to shade up during the day, but they go in now and
> there's people there, along with trash and fecal matter."
>
> Arizona's border with Mexico, more than 350 miles long, includes six
> national parks, three wildlife refuges, three national monuments, two
> national conservation areas and a national forest. Government scientists
> have documented the most serious damage at Cabeza Prieta and Organ Pipe.
>
> At Organ Pipe, on Cabeza Prieta's eastern border, the National Park
> Service
> estimates that visitors hiking the park's trails may encounter 200 pounds
> of
> trash per mile. Wildlife biologists say trash and human waste spread
> disease
> among animals.
>
> Soil compaction across hundreds of miles of roads and trails has killed
> cactuses' shallow root systems, causing towering saguaro and organ-pipe
> cactuses to topple, taking with them animal food sources and bird nests.
>
> At Organ Pipe, American Indian relics and pioneer ranch buildings have
> been
> damaged or destroyed, Billings said. The corral from Dos Lomitas Ranch, a
> 19th-century site listed on the National Register of Historic Places, is
> being taken apart board by board and the wood used for campfires.
>
> Thirsty border crossers are draining many scarce natural water sources and
> have damaged or destroyed water tanks placed by biologists for bighorn
> sheep
> and pronghorn. Dripping Springs, a centuries-old desert oasis for pioneers
> and prospectors, now regularly tests positive for high levels of E. coli
> bacteria.
>
> Last year, 3,500 acres burned in Cabeza Prieta, said Mike Coffeen, a Fish
> and Wildlife biologist at the refuge. The previous annual high was 50
> acres.
> According to refuge staff, the increase is caused by "come-get-me fires"
> set
> by undocumented migrants who become lost in the desert.
>
> Preventing damage is complicated by the Border Patrol's virtual immunity
> from laws designed to protect the border environment.
>
> Border Patrol agents pursue illegal immigrants in high-speed chases across
> fragile desert lands. Driving in the area normally would be prohibited by
> the Wilderness Act.
>
> The agency has established camps in wilderness areas, obliterating plants
> to
> make way for helicopter pads, trailers, fencing, generators and
> high-intensity lights. Since much desert wildlife is nocturnal, the noise
> and lights have driven animals out of their natural habitat.
>
> "What would this be like if the Border Patrol was not here?" DiRosa mused,
> walking around a bullet-ridden white station wagon stuck in the sand at
> Cabeza Prieta. "I'd shut the door, because the refuge would be so damaged
> and compromised. But the Border Patrol is a Catch-22: They protect the
> refuge but damage the wilderness."
>
> The Border Patrol says it now requires environmental sensitivity training
> and mandates that agents who drive through wilderness areas report
> incidents
> to refuge or park managers.
>
> "We've come a long ways," said Ron Colburn, the Border Patrol's chief
> patrol
> agent for the agency's Yuma sector. "It has been an evolution in the
> cultures of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service biologists and Border
> Patrol
> personnel. We were both operating in the same area but had recognizably
> different missions. We didn't see our missions joining."
>
> Now they do, Colburn said, citing a pending national agreement between the
> Border Patrol and several federal land- and wildlife-management agencies
> that seeks to reduce conflict and spell out how to operate in sensitive
> habitat.
>
> http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002916276_mexborder07.html

Once again the slogan is reinforced, "A good illegal alien is a dead
illegal alien". I understand these mestizoes are now infesting small
towns in the rural east.

John

We MUST welcome the illegals, honor diversity, because they are hard working
people who only want to get ahead, and who do work 'Gringos' will not do.
How much more does it take until we tell those jerks in DC to ensure that
our borders are secure and that illegals do not walk across in droves...

col mustard

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Half a century of shame
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa/browse_thread/thread/5c4f36a6deb510e8
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Apr 8 2006 9:53 pm
From: "PM"

La Muerte de Jose Stalin ese si que no era hijo de puta y su imitador
del Caribe tampoco...ja, ja, ja

Half a century of shame

So, it's fifty years since that other Great Dictator himself - Josef
Stalin - finally departed this mortal coil. Fifty years on from the death of
a man who probably did as much as anyone else in human history to sully the
name of socialism. Today, few outside of Arthur Scargill's mis-named
Socialist Labour Party and their friends in the near-moribund Stalin Society
have anything but contempt for one of the greatest destroyers of working
class hopes (and lives) this century.

Stalin presided over a ruthless dictatorship over the proletariat which was
the model followed by a host of other unsavoury regimes which believed that
the only way to achieve a socialist society was to oppress the very class -
the only class - capable of bringing it about. Their vision of this
socialist society was, in any case, distorted virtually beyond recognition,
where Marx's dictum "from each according to their ability, to each according
to their need" was replaced with "from each according to their ability, to
each according to their (supposed) work" and where the Party bureaucrats
drove round in limousines and accessed shops only they could access while
the rest of the population lived miserable lives of poverty.

It is difficult to think that a sane person could hanker back to the type of
regime that Stalin helped develop in Russia and which was replicated across
most of Eastern Europe and parts of Africa, East Asia and the Caribbean. And
yet, thousands of people - even in a country like the UK - still do. Not
that most of them would call themselves followers of Josef Stalin though -
far from it. Unlike Scargill and his ilk, these are people who profess to
abhor Stalinism and all that it led to: the fear, the intolerance, the
labour camps and the murders. But they are people who still agree with most
of what Stalin stood for, because even though they might be latter-day
supporters of Stalin's great rival in the Russian Communist Party, Leon
Trotsky, they are united in their fervour for the politics of the man who
mentored them both: Vladimir Ilyich Lenin.

The bureaucratic Russian police state which terrorised its political
opponents (including genuine socialists) did not originate with Stalin, nor
did it die with him. Neither was the idea that socialism was really
state-run capitalism when operated under the dictatorship of the Russian
Communist Party one of Stalin's contributions. These ideas were Lenin's and
they were adopted by Stalin and Trotsky alike.

Today, many political parties exist which still extol the virtues of Lenin
and Trotsky while supposedly denouncing Stalin and all his works. And yet
they undoubtedly agree with 95 percent of his politics, including most of
the bits others (rightly) find abhorrent. Groups like the Socialist Workers
Party, Militant (now masquerading under a nom-de-plume), the Alliance for
Workers Liberty and others all believe that the working class must be led to
socialism (read state controlled capitalism) by a dedicated band of
revolutionaries (them) who will then proceed to set up a "dictatorship of
the proletariat" in time-honoured fashion.

We must point out that their politics stands in clear distinction to the
honest, open and democratic political tradition of the Socialist Party. This
is a political tradition which insists that the working class of wage and
salary earners must themselves - organised democratically - bring about
socialism: a society without class division, the wages system, a state or
national frontiers.

Whatever our political opponents may say about us, we have a proud tradition
of standing by our principles and of conveying a consistent analysis of
capitalism and of how it can be democratically transformed into socialism.
As all reminders of the Soviet Union's murky existence demonstrate, our
opponents on the political Left meanwhile have a past to hide from and a
future that is merely a promise to repeat yesterday's nightmares. In
refusing to learn the lessons of the Russian debacle they have tarnished the
words "socialism" and "communism" to describe the society that can replace
capitalism. For these reasons, their protestations of innocence this month
will ring hollow to all those with a decent knowledge of history and a
political conscience to match.

--
CALLES DE LA HABANA: (ESTE WEBSITE ES UNA JOYA)

Calle http://www.guije.com/pueblo/habana/calles/calle23/index.htm 23
Quinta http://www.guije.com/pueblo/habana/calles/quinta/index.htm
Avenida
Línea <http://www.guije.com/pueblo/habana/calles/linea/index.htm
Almendares
http://www.guije.com/pueblo/habana/calles/almendares/index.htm

Calle http://www.guije.com/pueblo/habana/calles/calle26/index.htm 26
Avenida http://www.guije.com/pueblo/habana/calles/ave26/index.htm 26
Avenida http://www.guije.com/pueblo/habana/calles/ave11/index.htm 11
Avenida
http://www.guije.com/pueblo/habana/calles/presidentes/index.htm
de los Presidentes
Rancho http://www.guije.com/pueblo/habana/calles/rancho/index.htm
Boyeros
Monserrate
http://www.guije.com/pueblo/habana/calles/monserrate/index.htm
Empedrado http://www.guije.com/pueblo/habana/calles/empedrado/index.htm
Avenida http://www.guije.com/pueblo/habana/calles/puerto/index.htm del
Puerto
Calle Cuba http://www.guije.com/pueblo/habana/calles/cuba/ind

--
CALLES DE LA HABANA: (ESTE WEBSITE ES UNA JOYA)

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Ha! GOD Turns the Tables on Tennessee Sinners!
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa/browse_thread/thread/5e1ca2b7511c440
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Apr 8 2006 9:11 pm
From: "Mark K. Bilbo"

Previously, on alt.atheism, Robibnikoff in episode
<49qrcoFps8p6U1@individual.net>...

>
> <perryneheum@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1144513243.844123.213890@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> For decades of hateful racism, segregation, anti-Semitism, red-neckism,
>> Confederate flag-waving, white's only evangelism and fundamentalism, YOU
>> ARE NOW feeling God's condign punishment for your intolerance and
>> hypocrisy!
>>
>> Think this round of storms was bad? Wait'll next time. As you
>> sub-human semi-literates are fond of saying to "others,"
>>
>> "You brought this on yourselves!"
>
> What the hell is your problem?

Parody?

--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------

"Corps chief admits to 'design failure'"

(Took them longe enough)

http://makeashorterlink.com/?J3EF62DEC

"As hip as it is for outsiders to blame New Orleans
for everything bad that happened during and after
Hurricane Katrina, the truth is that the people
who lived here were much more prepared for a big
storm than the federal government that promised
us flood protection."

http://makeashorterlink.com/?V180525DC

"Everything New Orleans"
http://www.nola.com

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Pol Pot and his friends from the West Joven Martir de la lucha por la
dignidad CONTRA EL ESTALINISMO KASTRISTA.
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa/browse_thread/thread/bd44504d8b0e75e9
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Apr 8 2006 9:58 pm
From: "PM"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

International Politics Home In-Depth

This article has been reproduced from the Socialist Standard (August
1996), the monthly journal of the Socialist Party.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

Pol Pot and his friends from the West

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

In early June came news that Pol Pot, the butcher of Cambodia and
responsible for perhaps two million deaths, was dead. No doubt there are
many who are hoping that this is one death that is not exaggerated and who
would personally like to thank the mosquito that killed him. It is likely
that many books will now appear relating to his "legacy", as well as
hundreds of obituaries that chart his rise and fall.

What we are less likely to see is analysis that uncovers the complicity of
western governments in the "genocide" he perpetrated and how Pol Pot was in
fact a Frankenstein created by, principally western, power politicians.

Following independence from France in 1954, Cambodia came under the
increasing influence of Washington which financed much of the French
operation in Indo-China. The US really began to interfere during the Vietnam
War and especially after the right-wing pro-US Lon Nol regime was
established in 1966. Not only were all anti-Americans expelled from
political office, but over half-a-million Cambodians were unceremoniously
conscripted to fight America's war with the North Vietnamese.

In l969, President Nixon ordered the US airforce in. In the following four
years, B-52s and F1-11s dropped almost 280,000 bombs on Cambodia - the
equivalent of 25 Hiroshimas. A quarter of this total and five times more
than was dropped on Japan during the whole of World War Two was dropped
between February and August 1973. Although the targets were supposed to be
North Vietnamese supply bases, the vast majority of the imaginary sort, the
devastation left 750,000 Cambodians dead, killed 75 per cent of livestock,
destroyed 40 percent of roads and 30 percent of bridges and almost wiped out
the country's small industrial sector.

Land that had been used for growing the country's basic diet of rice became
punctuated with bomb craters. The rice crops suffered and famine ensued. The
regime back in Phnom Penh immediately ordered the confiscation of peasant
food stocks to feed the now starving towns and cities, to the dismay and
bewilderment of the long-suffering peasantry. It is often said that Pol
Pot's faction of the Khmer Rouge were Marxists, inspired by Mao, and intent
on taking Cambodia to a mythical harmonious pre-industrial past. In truth,
the Khmer Rouge under Pol Pot were ultra-nationalists who rose in direct
response to government confiscation of their food and the dire effects of
America's war with the North Vietnamese. Neither were their numbers made up
of trained "communist guerrillas". The Khmer Rouge initially consisted of
disgruntled peasants and the orphaned of US carpet-bombing who felt they had
little to lose.

The mass murder and utter insanity that followed as Pol Pot rose to power
was a pathetic attempt to punish those town and city dwellers thought
responsible for backing the government that 'invited' the US in and a vain
bid to repopulate the countryside and replace the tens of thousands who had
fled as refugees.

With the war over in Vietnam and the US nursing its bruises and recovering
from the biggest humiliation in its history, the west watched on from the
sidelines until the North Vietnamese army, fed up with Pol Pot's incursions
into their territory, invaded and ousted him in 1979. Again the west saw an
opportunity to have another go at the "communist threat". The CIA despatched
high-ranking personnel to assist Pol Pot and Britain sent the SAS to train
the Khmer Rouge in various tactics of war, including mine- laying.

Back at the UN, China and the US mounted pressure to ensure that Pol Pot
would have a seat on the General Assembly. The British delegate, Lord
Carrington, told the UN that Britain endorsed Pol Pot as the legitimate
ruler of the Khmer people. Only the Soviet Union voiced disapproval. With a
Hanoi-backed regime in Phnom Penh and the North Vietnamese army preventing
Pol Pot returning from his base across the Thai border, the UN posed a total
embargo on Cambodia, barring the country from all agreements on
international trade and commerce. In addition, development aid was withheld
and the World Health Organisation were barred from the country.

All of this would rather be kept quiet by western governments. Indeed,
Douglas Hurd, the former British Foreign Secretary once publicly declared:
"we have never given and will never support the Khmer Rouge" - this in face
of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. However, so long as Pol Pot
was anti-Vietnamese and anti-Soviet Union, the west was prepared to put up
with any of his excesses. As the saying goes: "he might be a bastard, but
he's one of our bastards".

In the dangerous game of globo-politics, it has been proved time and time
again that western capitalists will court any madman, so long as it furthers
their interests. Adolf Hitler, Stalin, Papa Doc, Nicolae Ceausescu, Idi Amin
and presently President Suharto of Indonesia, amongst countless others, have
all found favour with the western capitalist elite. No doubt the future will
throw up many more instances.

Author: J. Bissett
--
CALLES DE LA HABANA: (ESTE WEBSITE ES UNA JOYA)

--
CALLES DE LA HABANA: (ESTE WEBSITE ES UNA JOYA)

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Bangla Terrorist Groups Involved In Varanasi Bomb Blats
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa/browse_thread/thread/ee4fc3538a948b81
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Apr 8 2006 7:26 pm
From: "Messiah of the Death of Islam"

Seeker

Responses marked below

Seeker wrote:
> "Messiah of the Death of Islam" <gunjan.ghai@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1144469201.882593.326070@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
> > Seeker
> >
> > No response to my post ? STILL ?
> >
> > Just talking through your mouth does not make you intelligent....or
> > intelligible....Look at what you are saying....Indian
> > education....please tell me how pakistani education is better/different
> > ?
>
> I haven't had too many experiences with the Pakistani education system. My
> comparison was with the US education system which is far more superior than
> the Indian education system. As for Pakistani education system, it seems to
> me that most Pakistanis build their arguments more intelligently than the
> Indians do. With that in mind one can say that Pakistani education system
> may be better in some ways.

>>>> Are you talking about the same education system that GW Bush is talking about revamping so that the challenge from India and China can be met ? The same system that is now intending to teach Chinese and Hindi at early school ? I cant remember ONE pakistani dealing intelligently with me here....They only turn abusive or refuse to believe data when they dont have an answer....I would like you to quote an example of a debate here that proves that a Pakistani won an argument/debate !!

>
> >
> > I have mentioned that you 'ruled' a broken up country....with no hindu
> > king agreeing with each other....and then Ranjeet Singh....thats the
> > last Indian ruler YOU had before the brits rescued you....You forget
> > who ruled you last do you ?
>
> Who might that be?

>>>> Despite Nusrat reminding you day on day....you forget....THIS is selective attention (there is no term like selective comprehension as you have mentioned later)....RANJEET SINGH AND HIS CLAN (I put it in bold so you remember)

> >
> > And I think we all enjoy troubling old men like you....we are not here
> > for anyting but having fun at your expense....and we keep coming back
> > because you dont stop being a source of entertainment for us
> > (especially you Seeker....remember people requesting you to come back
> > and post again....even Naureen used to miss your blabbering)
>
> Huh? Mind explaining what this means?

>>>> I dont mind explaining a 100 times.....What I am saying here is that your presence on this group is essential to our entertainment. You had mentioned that Indians are obsessed with Pakistan and quoted some figures about how many posts rkusenet had posted....so this is in response to that....do you always have trouble remembering ?

>
> >
> > So now you know ?
> >
> > And I also think Pakis dont have too many comps and are not educated
> > enough to be able to respond to facts, data and realit....well...but
> > they are fun to prod and irritate...you being the king of that category.
>
> But my point is that you don't even know how to use the facts, or know the
> basis of the facts you quote, so how can you possibly irritate me. What
> irritates me is stupidity. You can convince me of anything if you use
> intelligence, but so far I haven't seen that.

>>>> Seeker, you know it in your heart that you have never been able to respond with reality, data or anything....you only express your feelings and desires (sometime fantasies) that India/Indians dont have a logic, are poor sad people and so on and so forth...I present data...you dispute it....but have NEVER presented data to counter what I have presented....smacks of escapism ? or should I call it...lack of knowledge/information ? Or a desperate attempt to hold on to your beliefs...and call them the truth becasue they are YOUR beliefs....do you think making statements like 'if you use intelligence' takes away the fact that you have no statistical, scientific and widely accepted answer to the information I have posted to you ? The only response I have got is something like....You may bring whatever data you want....I will believe what I want because my heart tells me....this is a sign of a closed mind to me...sorry for saying that

==============================================================================
TOPIC: House of Representatives racist Cynthia McKinney goes to the well one
too many times!
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa/browse_thread/thread/ddb928e5d7fac726
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Apr 8 2006 7:28 pm
From: SPQRLEGIOXX@AOL.COM

She is a stupid ugly bitch and that is the best I can say of her.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: An American Intifada?
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa/browse_thread/thread/655bf570fc71dac0
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Apr 8 2006 10:31 pm
From: "serwad"

Most of the Mexicans have roots in the native tribes of Souther4n United
States, and have as much rights to be in United States as any American
natives have. They have been expelled 150 years ago, this fact does not
diminish their claim to their ancestral lands!

As for their sympathies with the Palestinian people, it is obvious that one
dispaced nations would have sympathies with another.

"Norm³" <Logan5@Runs.net> wrote in message
news:qoUZf.20431$Sf.16233@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
> An American Intifada?
>
> We've all seen the news footage of waves of illegal immigrants darting
> through the desert underbrush on their way toward the US border. The
> 'immigration issue' has become this year's political hot-potato.
>
> "La Raza" (literally, 'The Race') sees itself as "America's Palestinians"
> and has as its goal the recovery of its former territories in the American
> Southwest, specifically, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California, which
> they call "Aztlan".
>
> Their website "La Voz de Aztlan" (Voice of Aztlan) is crammed full of
> articles sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, with subheadings like "USA
> Jewry, the Media and Hollywood"; "God vs. Zionism and USA Immorality" and
> "The Palestinian Struggle".
>
>
> http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/apr2006/mariek46-2.htm
>
>
>

==============================================================================
TOPIC: DENMARK: Muslim Bastards Go After Cartoonist's Daughter . . .
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa/browse_thread/thread/4912ad3ca7fe9080
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Apr 9 2006 2:36 am
From:

nkdatta2466@bigmailbox.net writes:

> Tyranny Of Pakistan's Blasphemy Laws:

<shrug>
Appears to be a result of a non-Muslim community trying to
pass themselves off as Muslims.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Thank you, India admirer !
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa/browse_thread/thread/e5d8f7ba709dcb5b
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Apr 8 2006 7:36 pm
From: gunjan.ghai@gmail.com

Seeker

Responses marked as >>>>
Seeker wrote:
> <gunjan.ghai@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1144469777.758274.206810@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
> > I will tell you the difference
> >
> > We modified our behaviour....There are laws in India that take care of
> > this....We have reservations for the 'lower castes'
>
> Once again your deficient Indian education is coming through loud and clear.
> Laws don't guarantee behavior modification. This is more true in India than
> anywhere else. Religious persecution and caste based hate crimes go largely
> unpunished in India. When the police won't press charges, and the judges
> won't apply the law, what good are your impotent laws?

>>>> Indian education system is widely accpted as greatly successful. IIT grads living in the US contribute to almost 10% of the US economy by activities they do directly or indirectly. Sorry to break the news to you....the laws are strictly implemented in India and we have an independent judiciary...unlike...err....your country where we know how mian musharraf has used the judiciary like an wing of the army !!! I dont deny caste based crimes in India....but that happens in the poorest of states in India....thats where the naxals that you quote are more prevelant....the reasons are more socio economic than casteist...although I do accept that muslims and lower castes are really poor even now in India.

> >
> > What about your muslim world ? Can you outlaw the word 'Kaffir' ??? Can
> > you ensure that the verses of Kuran that propogate violence against
> > 'Kaffirs' are erased and declared illegal ?
>
> The word Kaffir does not cause harm to anyone.

>>>> This is the funniest I have heard...The whole islamophobia lobby and islamist jihadis build their arguments around the word 'Kaffir' bu you say it doesnt cause harm to anyone ? What about the hadith's in the kuran against kaffirs ? Isnt the word used as an abuse by muslims ?

>
> >
> > and does social malices from teh past make you and your country better
> > ?
> >
> > Indias 100% democratic period from 1947 vs Pakistan's chequered history
> > since 1947 is proof enough of the outcome !!!! But then you wouldnt
> > believe it....becasue you dont feel like...LoL
>
> What good is the democracy when the vast majority of Indians are persecuted
> on the basis of their religion or caste. Shame on you to cover up such gross
> injustices in India.

>>>> Kya baat hai...one visit to India and you hae formed your opinion ? And what about Shia-Sunni riots in your land ? Ahemdis and their persecution ? Baluchistan ? NWFP ? Sindh ? Mohajirs ? All societies have their evils....the difference is in how the society cures itself...the open nature of hindus/indians has already set them on that way.....you and the rest of the islamic countries are still stuck...refusing to come out of the medieval way of living/thinking till you are pushed out of your current situation by the world.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: BUSH & CHENEY INTELLECT EQUAL TO THAT OF A GOAT!
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa/browse_thread/thread/b282fabc764fcffb
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Apr 8 2006 10:40 pm
From: "serwad"

Bush and Cheney Get Over On Fitzgerald
Evelyn Pringle

April 8, 2006

With the latest revelations in the CIA leak case, the question on the
minds of most Americans, is whether Bush and Cheney were the masterminds in
an organized plot to destroy Joe Wilson by revealing his wife's name and
status as a undercover agent of the CIA.

Hands down, yes they were. And a brilliant scheme it was; especially
when one considers that the combined IQ of Bush and Cheney is probably not
equal to that of a goat..

A concerted effort to destroy a critics is not a jailable offense. But
it would seem that because they knew Valerie Plame was an under-cover
operative, and knew the information was classified, that such a disclosure
would be in legal terms "willful." In other words, a disclosure of
information on purpose, even though they knew it was classified.

Although that may be true, being Bush and Cheney knew they were the
culprits at the center of the investigation, they came up with a plan to
hog-tie Prosecutor Fitzgerald and sabotage his investigation right from the
start.

While it may appear that Bush stepped in to take the fall for Libby,
don't believe it for one minute. Bush would never, never take a fall for
anyone, probably not even his own mother. Or I should say for sure not his
own mother, because he obviously has a lot of unresolved issues with her.

Bush stepped in because he was forced to by Libby's court filings. He
knew this day would come but he also knew he was untouchable.

When Libby leaked the name of a CIA operative he released classified
information, which would be a crime, if he acted on his own authority, as
most of us believed. But now we find out that he was not acting on his own
authority, he was acting under instructions from Cheney and Bush and thus,
as it turns out, he did nothing illegal.

That is, until he lied, presumably to save the butts of Cheney and
Bush. If Libby would have simply went before the grand jury and told the
truth, the saga would have ended then and there and the public would have
known the truth before the last Presidential election.

In covering for Bush, Libby's lies can be credited for giving Bush a
second term. But a lot of good it did him. So long as Bush sticks to the
story that unbeknownst to anyone, besides himself, Cheney and Libby, he had
"declassified" certain information and told Cheney to instruct Libby to
release it, Bush and Cheney walk, but Libby does not.

Fitzgerald knew this was going to happen and this is why it always
seemed as if he was talking in circles when discussing Libby's indictment
and why he continued to say over and over that Libby was not being charged
with leaking the name of a CIA agent, and that furthermore, he did he plan
to charge Libby with that crime.

Fitzgerald knows full well that the White House pulled a fast one on
him.

He knew it shortly after his investigation got underway. But Libby is
still going down, in part, probably because Fitzgerald is ticked off over
being had. And in turn, this is why Libby is so ticked off, and why he is
now trying to bring Bush and Cheney into the mix.

The "fast one" that got Bush and Cheney off the hook does not apply to
him and its disclosure in court filings won't help one bit in defending
against the charges he's facing.

Libby needs to accept the fact that he has officially been "hung out
to dry."

Apparently, Bush can declassify any information he has a mind to at a
minutes notice. Talk about not-so-subtle blackmail. This probably explains
why other CIA employees have stayed in lockstep with the line that they did
not feel pressured by the administration to hype or distort intelligence in
the run up to war.

In fact, it probably explains a lot more about why this White House
keeps getting away with murder.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Should Hiroshima and Nagasaki bar US investment and merchandise ?
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa/browse_thread/thread/4ff4bcb10541ff10
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Apr 8 2006 7:42 pm
From: "FRED WELLMAN"

"Musashi" <Miyamato@Hosokawa.co.jp> wrote in message
news:YlYZf.3107$mu2.1504@newssvr24.news.prodigy.net...
>
> "FRED WELLMAN" <fwellman@wideopenwest.com> wrote in message
> news:GsednS0iUPkqgqXZRVn-uA@wideopenwest.com...
>>
>> "Musashi" <Miyamato@Hosokawa.co.jp> wrote in message
>> news:OrRZf.3072$mu2.2257@newssvr24.news.prodigy.net...
>> >
>> > "FRED WELLMAN" <fwellman@wideopenwest.com> wrote in message
>> > news:0OednflrKMLWQqrZnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@wideopenwest.com...
>> >>
>> >> "Musashi" <Miyamato@Hosokawa.co.jp> wrote in message
>> >> news:lfQZf.3063$mu2.2277@newssvr24.news.prodigy.net...
>> >> >
>> >> > "FRED WELLMAN" <fwellman@wideopenwest.com> wrote in message
>> >> > news:Jd6dnUV34JBRuKrZnZ2dnUVZ_vidnZ2d@wideopenwest.com...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "Musashi" <Miyamato@Hosokawa.co.jp> wrote in message
>> >> >> news:j3iZf.8963$%m4.2864@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > "Dr. bitter anko" <kaz762@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> >> >> > news:1144362350.283104.25030@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Musashi ??????:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> "Dr. bitter anko" <kaz762@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> >> >> >> news:1144326491.864266.96820@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Musashi ??????:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > "Y. H. Park" <yparkrrhad@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> >> >> >> > news:1144237681.930693.277040@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> >> >> SNIPPED
>> >> >> > If so please explain why the United States went to war >against
>> >> >> > Germany.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Because Germany declared war on the US after Pearl Harbor. Hitler
> was
>> >> >> really pissed that his "ALLIES" made him declare war, or void a
>> >> >> treaty,
>> >> >> He
>> >> >> knew it was a mistake. Fred
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > Are you not aware that the US was sendiung military supplies to
> England
>> >> > (and
>> >> > USSR) in
>> >> > convoy fleets prior to Dec 11 1941, and that German U-boats were
>> >> > sinking
>> >> > them?
>> >> > Have you ever heard of the Lend-Lease program?
>> >>
>> >> Very aware of it. If they were US flagged the US had the right to
> defend
>> >> them. I know FDR wanted to get into the war with Germany and did what
> he
>> >> could to do so. He lied during the 1940 election to get reelected.
>> > Germany
>> >> could have bought supplies from the US if it wanted. Are you aware
> that
>> >> German Sub's where in and out of New York harbor before 1942. The
> would
>> > buy
>> >> newspapers with the sailing times of ships then wait off shore for
> them.
>> >
>> > Very aware of German espionage success in tjhe US.
>> >
>> >> That still doe not change the fact Germany declared war on the US
> before
>> > the
>> >> US declared war on Germany. Fred
>> >>
>> >
>> > So you admit that FDR "wanted to get into a war with Germany", that the
> US
>> > was supplying England
>> > and the Soviets with arms to figfht the Germans, that US and German
> forces
>> > had actually engaged each other
>> > as early as October of 1941....but claim that the reason the US went to
>> > war
>> > with Germany was because
>> > Germany declared war on Dec 11th?
>> >
>> In 1940 congress reinstated the draft by 1 vote. The American people did
>> not want to get into war. FDR saw that it was a necessity. Hitler would
>> not have stopped at Europe. FDR did all of the things stated YET Germany
>> did not declare war on the US until after 12/11/41. Had FDR went to
>> congress asking for a war declaration on 12/10/41 it would not have
> passed.
>> America's action from 1938-Pearl Harbor was almost cold war like. The
>> biggest difference is Germany COULD buy what it needed from the US and
>> for
>> most of the clod war the USSR could not. If not bound by a treaty I
>> doubt
>> Hitler would have declared war on the US until Russia and GB were
> defeated.
>> Germany's technology was far ahead of what the Allies had, the bomb being
>> the exception. Fred
>>
>
> So you are separating FDR's personal agenda from the wishes of the
> majority
> of the
> American public. Is that correct?
> To me your words above support my position that the US did in fact want to
> enter the
> war against Germany well before Pearl Harbor.
>
After rereading my post's to be sure, I never stated that FDR did not want
the US in the war with Germany. Much has come out in the open since WW2
that states that including a letter to Church stating we would be in the
war. Yes FDR did go against the view of the majority of the people and go
to war. He would not have been reelected in 1940 had he not lied and said
he would keep the US out of "Europe's" war. Leaders do that all the time.
Support for the war in Iraq is around 30% now. But our leaders still keep
us over there. If the US did not enter the war do you think it would have
been good to let Germany win? Without US bombing they would have been able
to have a V-2 variation that would hit the US. With the Jet fighters going
into production at the end oft the war WITH the US bombing imagine the state
of the weaponry they would have had. Fred

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Sing Along With BITCH ("Itz Hard Out Here For A Pimp")
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.usa/browse_thread/thread/d050999ea1771c53
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Apr 8 2006 7:47 pm
From: Voice Of Reason <>

On Tue, 04 Apr 2006 05:41:16 -0700, Von Bailey
<ovbailey@noneofyourbusiness.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 02 Apr 2006 23:40:57 -0400, Voice Of Reason <> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 02 Apr 2006 06:43:13 -0700, Von Bailey
>><ovbailey@noneofyourbusiness.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 02 Apr 2006 01:56:56 -0500, Voice Of Reason <> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Can anyone please explain WHY this "song" is nominated for an award??
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>At least someone had enough common sense to ensure a 5-second *delay*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>is in effect during the show.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Because it does a good job of representing the movie that it was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>scored for, which would be the reason any song is nominated in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>oscars.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Can ya show us where it says THAT is the main criteria for nomination?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Where did I say it was the 'main reason'? Again you misiterpret my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>words and ask me to explain your misinterpretation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Yes you're right. You did say it was "the" reason for its nomination,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>not the main reason. So my question is even more relevant now.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>http://www.oscars.org/78academyawards/rules/rule16.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Read the rules and get informed before you get into discussions you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>know little about.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Where in the rules does it justify voting for a piece of trash.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I see. Everyone was supposed to start with the premise that YOUR
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>opinion is the only one that matters. Well, sorry to disappoint you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>but the people who voted obviously couldn't care less about your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>opinion on the matter. Try to live with it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I can live with it just fine, because I realized many, many years ago
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that the Oscar awards committee was packed with folks who are way out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of the mainstream. Of course, I do keep hoping for a pleasant
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>surprise now and then, but it looks like I've got more waiting to do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>It's interesting that you consider yourself the definition of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>'mainstream' while the real thing moves further and further from you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>As I have said in the past, you will die off, just like all the old
>>>>>>>>>>>>>people who ranted about how rock and roll, jazz and any other kind of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>music that moved into the mainstream was destroying something and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>never did. And Rap Music will still be here...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>cRap music will be still be here for a small group of knuckleheads,
>>>>>>>>>>>>but just because the super-liberal Hollywood types saw fit to give it
>>>>>>>>>>>>ONE award doesn't mean that it is now "accepted" by the mainstream,
>>>>>>>>>>>>because it isn't.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>That's right. Stay in denial you serve a purpose there. An example
>>>>>>>>>>>of a dying breed. First step, they deny the world is changing around
>>>>>>>>>>>them, fail to adapt and die off.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Wrong, wrong and wrong. Now quit dreaming, get out of bed and go do
>>>>>>>>>>something constructive. Like chase the pimps off your block.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>My neighborhood apprently doesn't share the same type of people as
>>>>>>>>>yours. There are no pimps to worry about around here that I am aware
>>>>>>>>>of.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Did you open your eyes after hitting the street?. But I can assure
>>>>>>>>you there are NO pimps, gangs, etc, on my block.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Well, you're the one bringing them up so I guess we are again subject
>>>>>>>to you speaking on a subject of which you are totally ignorant.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Yes, I plead guilty to having first-person experience with them.
>>>>>
>>>>>Well then I stand corrected. Given that you say that pimps aren't in
>>>>>your neighborhood I guess you traveled somewhere to have this
>>>>>'experience' with pimps. A new side of you comes out.
>>>>
>>>>Wrong, you stand incorrect as usual. I was talking about the
>>>>assurance that there are no pimps, gangs, etc, on my block. Because I
>>>>have a very good ongoing first-person experience with what goes on
>>>>around here.
>>>>
>>>You didn't say you had a first person experience with "what goes on
>>>around here" you said you had a first person experience with the
>>>subject that was at hand, pimps and hoes. Now that you've been
>>>discovered you're running from your words.
>>
>>Nope, you're just taking my words out of context. Something that's
>>always given you problems.
>>
>So now you deny that you have personal experience with them. Your
>going back on your word is not unusual but expected so feel free.

Nothing to go back on. You quoted me out of context. Nothing more.

>>>>>>Which of course changes nothing regarding the merits of giving out an
>>>>>>Oscar to a song which effectively celebrates that lifestyle.
>>>>>
>>>>>Then why'd you bring it up?
>>>>
>>>>I think you're confused again.
>>>>
>>>Because you are changing your story. YOU brought up pimps and hoe not
>>>me. YOU said that you had a personal experience with them not me.
>>>Now you are saying that's not what you meant. Well you keep changing
>>>your story and that will sound confusing.
>>
>>You're grasping for straws again. Not new.
>>
>You change your words and it's ME grasping at straws?

Nope, you took my words out of context, and yes, you *are* grasping at
straws, as you often do.

>>>>>> Nor does
>>>>>>it change my conviction that under no circumstances do I want a pimp
>>>>>>and his entourage of hos EVER to show up in my neighborhood.
>>>>>>
>>>>>Yet you claim 'first-person experience'. Where'd the 'experience'
>>>>>come from?
>>>>
>>>>Now I know you are confused.
>>>>
>>>So you didn't have the experience you claim above?
>>
>>I have what I claimed -- knowledge about what goes on in the streets
>>around my house. Or in the case of pimps, hos, drugs, etc, what
>>doesn't go on.
>>
>Really? What is this "knowledge" based on? How did you come about to
>*know* this as factual?

Getting out and about in the immediate vicinity where I live, day and
night. Guess what, no sign of hos, pimps, dope dealers, etc. No
graffiti, no nothing. Boring? Yes. Which suits me just fine, as I
wouldn't want to try to go to sleep every night to sounds of gunfire,
stabbings, police sirens, cRap "music" blaring, drunkards and
dopeheads screaming and pissing on the streets, etc.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Are you claiming
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that the song has nothing to do with the movie it was scored for? Are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>you claiming that such a criteria has nothing to do with it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>nomination?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Virutally every movie made over the past 40 years has a soundtrack, so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the fact that this putrid film has a song that "represents" it is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>meaningless. I still have no idea, upon reviewing the lyrics, why on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>earth *this* song is worthy of an award.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>That's because, as you have already admitted, you haven't seen the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>film and you are a poor judge of whether or not it effectively
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>represents the film for just that reason.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Since nearly every movie made has at least one song that "represents"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>it at least as well as this one, I still don't see why *this* one has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to win the award.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>You haven't seen the movie so you have no legitmate metric to make
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>your judgement from. Until then it's just you ranting your usual
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>uninformed opinion.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Wrong, I DO have a "legitmate metric" -- it's called the lyrics, which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I and others around here have referred to, including right here on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>this thread. Now grab some coffee, then open yer eyes, and yer mind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>too.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Your "legitmate metric" is not the one that the oscars use so as far
>>>>>>>>>>>>>as the "oscar winners" your metric is useless. Go find someone who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>cares about the songs of old white men wishing for the past.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>You missed the point as usual. Of course the Oscar folks didn't take
>>>>>>>>>>>>the lyrics into account when selecting the award -- if they did, they
>>>>>>>>>>>>would have had to give the award to someone else.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>According to you who was not part of the process and as such has
>>>>>>>>>>>nothing except your bigotted notiions to draw from.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Nothing except the words of the lyrics themselves, which were freely
>>>>>>>>>>available to any interested party before the awards were decided, and
>>>>>>>>>>thus could have (and should have) been reviewed by the members of the
>>>>>>>>>>committee before the vote.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Well, if the words won by themselves you might have a point. But
>>>>>>>>>unlike you, the people who voted have the ability not only to read the
>>>>>>>>>words but listen to them with music and then associate them to the
>>>>>>>>>movie in which it was written for. Thus, not suffering your apparent
>>>>>>>>>ignorance they had the ability to vote in a way you couldn't.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Wrong. The association was clear enough, and it was all garbage.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Your ability to make the association to a movie you didn't see would
>>>>>>>be miraculous if it was true. But since it isn't we have another
>>>>>>>demonstration of you speaking of things of which you are ignorant,
>>>>>>>again.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Wrong, because I know to read, and thus having read the lyrics of the
>>>>>>"song" that was deemed worthy of an Oscar, I found out all I needed to
>>>>>>know.
>>>>>>
>>>>>No doubt. An ignorant superficial person such as yourself wouldn't
>>>>>want to take into account the entire scope of criteria to judge the
>>>>>song. Prejudging something without all the evidence is one of your
>>>>>specialties.
>>>>
>>>>The lyrics are all the evidence I need, and you should read them too.
>>>
>>>True, you are of course the psuedo-great white man. Why should you
>>>actually use the criteria for the award to judge the song? You, in
>>>your infinate fake powers *believe* you know better.
>>
>>Guess what silly one, *I* didn't write those lyrics, some black guy
>>did.
>>
>Guess what stupid one, *I* didn't say you did write them.

But you said I believe I know better. Well, no, I don't have to
"know", I just need to be able to read the lyrics.

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